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Dedication · Senior Member

Daniel 11

Dedication · Senior Member

The vision of Daniel 11, begins in chapter 10 and continues on into chapter 12.

DANIEL 10

For three weeks Daniel prayed. It may well have seemed like no answer was
coming.

However, heaven was working! Gabriel had been at the Persian court pleading
with Cyrus in his decisions for the fate of Israel.
The dark angels who considered the empire their rightful domain were also there.
A fierce battle was taking place.

One thing is sure. Until a nation rejects God totally, holy angels are always
in the midst of their councils, holding back evil and influencing for good.

Gabrial was resisted or opposed by an evil angel as he labored with Cyrus. He
stood against him, and delayed him on his way to Daniel. The most likely
interpretation is, that, in order to answer the prayers of Daniel in respect to
his people, it was necessary that some arrangement should be made by the Persian
emperor - influencing the government to be favorable to the restoration of the
Jews to their own land; or removing some obstacles that stood in the way of
their return.

It was probably due to these obstacles which had caused Daniel to fast and pray
those three weeks.

Michael (Christ Himself) Who is the commander of the heavenly hosts came to help
Gabrial!

Cyrus was prophetically destined to be the liberator of God's people, to end the
captivity and allow the Jews to return to build the temple in Jerusalem. The
Messiah was promised to come to Abraham (and David's) descendants.

Satan was determined to upset and prevent the plan.
Not only at this point in history, when he worked on Cyrus to abort the
liberation of the Jews, but also in the whole history that was to follow.

In Daniel 11 the history would unfold. It was a history of continual warfare
and trouble, even when the Prince of the Covenant would come.

But Christ would prevail and He would have a people who would shine as the
brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the
stars for ever and ever.

Dedication · Senior Member

In the progression of time, Daniel's vision is now in the Greek era (symbolized in earlier visions as the four headed leopard, (Daniel 7) and the goat that lost it's one horn and in it's place had four (Daniel 8)

Now --

11.5
And the king of the south shall be strong, and one of his princes; and he shall be strong above him, and have dominion; his dominion shall be a great dominion.

The Ptolemy dynasty in the south was strong. They reigned over their territory with an authoritative central power control, much like the ancient Egyptians. Their capital was set up in Alexandria, the city which Alexander had founded and which became one of the most magnificent cities of the ancient world. For a time it was the foremost commercial port on the Mediterranean which made them commanders of the Eastern Mediterranean Sea.

They reached out also into the Red Sea with their fleets, and from the Indian Ocean to the Hellespont, from Sicily to Syria; the Egyptian fleets brought wealth into the treasury of Egypt. They also took possession of Palestine and southern Syria.

But the kingdom above him, under the general Seleucus Nicator,(312-281) with the assistance of Ptolemy I Sotar, (323-280)took command of the northern territory, and gained the greater dominion. The Seleucids (king of the north) took over Syria and Asia Minor from Lysimachus, and thus had dominion in the north. They were the chief heirs of Alexander's kingdom and held the larger part of his empire, extending from the Aegean to the frontiers of India. They planted scores of new Greek cities through Asia Minor, Syria, in Persia and far over on the borders of India. Their form of government was "city centered", yet each city was answerable to the larger Seleucid kingdom. Greek life, took possession of much of the Euro-orient continent.

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As for the Jewish nation situated in the middle -- Greek learning captured their minds, and enslaved them to its ideas. Greek Philosophy, modified and infused into their religion, counterfeited so neatly, so pleasantly, the spiritual teachings of the Old Testament, and so quietly, yet so surely, began to wean them away from the pure Biblical truths, until they were worshipping the creature and their religious forms, more than the Creator.

So, instead of Israel taking the leading role in the world which God intended them to have, instead of preparing the world for the coming of Messiah the Savior from sin, they developed a revised religion.

The deadliest, yet most sought after conquest of Satan is to invade the religion that is characterized as "God's true church" or people.
The Greek hellenization did it's greatest damage to God's people, NOT by war or oppression, but by philosophy, and a highly civilized pagan culture.

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The next few verses tell the story of the factions of the Grecian Empire trying to make peace but without the refining power of God in their lives everything just got a whole lot worse.

11.6
And in the end of years they (the Ptolemies and Seleucids) shall join themselves together; for the king's daughter of the south shall come to the king of the north to make an agreement: but she shall not retain the power of the arm; neither shall he stand, nor his arm: but she shall be given up, and they that brought her, and he that begat her, and he that strengthened her in these times.
11.7
But out of a branch of her roots shall one stand up in his estate, which shall come with an army, and shall enter into the fortress of the king of the north, and shall deal against them, and shall prevail:
11.8
And shall also carry captives into Egypt their gods, with their princes, and with their precious vessels of silver and of gold; and he shall continue more years than the king of the north.
11.9
So the king of the south shall come into his kingdom, and shall return into his own land.

Berenice, the daughter of Ptolemy II Philadelphus, (285-246) who was given in marriage to the king of the north, Antiochus II Theos, (261-246) in the hopes of bringing peace between the two powers. Antichus II Theos put away his own wife, Laodice, in order to marry Berenice. But as the prophecy states, Bernice lost favor in the eyes of Antichus Theos, who restored Laodice as his wife. However, Laodice was determined to have her revenge and arranged to have her husband Antichus Theos poisoned, as well as influencing the murder of Berenice, Berenice's child by Antiochus Theos, and Berenice's Egyptian attendants and supporters.

The treacherous act against Bernice aroused the royal house of Egypt, and a brother of Berenice, a shoot from her roots, advanced against the Seluicid kingdom with a large army. Ptolemy III Euergetes, (246-221) son of Ptolemy II Philadephus, is here described. He not only invaded Syria, but went to Babylon, where he found some of the Egyptian gods and molten images which Cambyses had captured during his war in Egypt. These Ptolemy returned. It is said that he carried to Egypt forty thousand vessels of silver and gold.. Ptolemy Euergetes, having gained control of much of Syria, then returned to his own kingdom, where he outlived Antiochus Callinicus, the son of Laodice.

Actually a very accurate account!

It also reveals the trend through the centuries of countries trying to make peace by intermarriage. It never works. Not for the Ptolomies and Seleucids, not for the ten toes of the image in Daniel --

Why doesn't it work? Political intrique and power hungry rivals do not produce loving marriages.

.
Da 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
Eventually it was time for some other nation to come along and be given a chance to follow God's law, and thus the Grecian kingdom would met their demise at the hands of Rome.

Dedication · Senior Member

The first few verses in Daniel 11 are generally agreed upon by most commentaries.
God's people were situated in the middle as these powers struggled with each other.

Daniel 11:2
Behold, there shall stand up yet three kings in Persia; and the fourth shall be far richer than they all: and by his strength through his riches he shall stir up all against the realm of Grecia.

Daniel 10 tells us this vision took place in the 3rd year of king Cyrus.
The Persian kings who followed Cyrus were; Cambyses (529-522) who conquered Egypt, Smerdis (522-521) Darius the Great(521-485), who started the wars against the Persians, and the fourth is Xerxes who ruled (486-465 B.C.)

Forty years after Cyrus decreed that Israel return to Jerusalem, most were still in Babylon, they were too comfortable in Babylon. However God wanted them out of Babylon. If freedom to leave would not get them out, God allowed Xerxes to issue a decree against them. A death decree! But God also made a way of escape for them. This decree of Xerxes is a type of the decree which will soon be issued by the beast of Revelation 13. The message is still "Come out of Babylon".

Daniel 8:4 refers to the Persian kings as the Ram pushing westward, and northward, and southward, who became great.

Both Darius and Xerxes attacked the Greek States. Darius' attempt was not very successful, but Xerxes did stir up many forces against the realm of Grecia , advancing both by land and sea, against the Greek States. After winning several battles, the Persian fleet was all but annihilated and Xerxes retreated. The Persian land army was driven out of Greece a year later. The Persian's hope of controlling the Aegean waters was completely defeated; meanwhile, the Greeks had tasted power. Thus the prophetic picture now leaves the Persian Empire in it's decline even though there are several more minor Persian Kings after Xerxes, and focuses on Greece.

More than any other nation the Greek culturers, philosophies, and policies affected the newly re-established Hebrew nation. (Later Rome affected them physically, but even then it was the Greek culture and thinking that penetrated and preverted the religious understanding.)

11.3
And a mighty king shall stand up, that shall rule with great dominion, and do according to his will.

This text parallels with Daniel 8:5 and refers to the He Goat who came from the west with the notable horn between his eyes. The horn is identified in Daniel 8:21 as the first king of Grecia (Alexander 333-323 B.C) who defeats the Persian "ram".

11.4
And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Alexander the Great is that mighty king. Daniel 8:5-8 speaks of this "he-goat"coming from the west and casting the ram (Persia) to the ground and trampling him.

Alexander did not attack Jerusalem -- Josephus writes of Alexander coming to Jerusalem -- it's a rather interesting story. Due to scripturaly revelations, Alexander recongnizes that God has given Persia into his hands, and he treats the Jews with consideration.

"And when the Book of Daniel was showed him wherein Daniel declared that one of the Greeks should destroy the empire of the Persians, he supposed that himself was the person intended." (see "Antiquities of the Jews" Chapter VIII)

"The he-goat waxed very great and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds (four directions)of heaven. (Dan. 8:8)

At the height of Alexander's campaign of conquering the world, he died in the land of Babylon, probably as a result of intemperance and excess, and his kingdom was divided amongst his four generals. The four winds, or four directions of the compass:

Daniel 11.4
And when he shall stand up, his kingdom shall be broken, and shall be divided toward the four winds of heaven; and not to his posterity, nor according to his dominion which he ruled: for his kingdom shall be plucked up, even for others beside those.

Daniel 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Here is an important check point in Daniel 11, by comparing Daniel 11 with Daniel 7-9 we connect the dots where the passages speak of the same thing.

Daniel 11:4 connects with Daniel 8:8 -- speaking of the identical event.

Both speak conquest of Alexander, who built a great empire in a matter of years, but at it's height, Alexander died and the empire was divided into east, north, south and west under four generals.

Two of these divisions -- the north and the south (Seleucid and Ptolemies) would greatly affect God's people living in "in the middle" in Judea.

Though both the kings of the North and the kings of the South were spreading the Greek culture, they did not get along very well. The next few verses of Daniel 11 describe the battles between these two "Greek kingdoms" as they feuded back and forth, with the land of Israel located in between. The north, represents more or less the continuation of the Babylonian religion, mixed with Greek culture while the south represents more or less the Egyptian religion, mixed with Greek culture.

From this we can already learn that the prophecies of Daniel have
God's people "in the middle" as warring nations and powers battle for control. We can only wonder what would have happened as these two armies marched back and forth over Jewish soil, IF the people in the middle had truly embraced God's covenant and were following HIS perscription?
History would have been different! God's people would have been the "light of the world"

Dedication · Senior Member

The peace plan (by marriage arrangement) having failed miserably; the northern king, his bride Bernice, and their young son all ending up dead --- the two kingdoms heap revenge upon revenge! The king of the south (Bernice's brother), in the battle to avenge Bernice's betrayal had taken considerable territory from the king of the north (Seleucus II Callinicos, the son of Laodice, Antiochus II Theos, first wife ) .

The king of the South controlled Palestine as well.

Next we come to the kingdom of the north, and Seleucus II's sons.

11.10
But his sons shall be stirred up, and shall assemble a multitude of great forces: and one shall certainly come, and overflow, and pass through: then shall he return, and be stirred up, even to his fortress.

Two sons of Seleucus II Callinicus (246-225) undertook to regain the lost territory of the "king of the North" and redeem the honor of their father. The first was inefficient and reigned only two years; but the younger, Antiochus III Magnus, (Antiochus the Great) (223-187) advanced speedily, regaining much of the lost territory. He was quite an ambitious conqueror.

11.11
And the king of the south shall be moved with choler, and shall come forth and fight with him, even with the king of the north: and he shall set forth a great multitude; but the multitude shall be given into his hand.

11.12
And when he hath taken away the multitude, his heart shall be lifted up; and he shall cast down many ten thousands: but he shall not be strengthened by it.

Ptolemy IV Epiphanes, the new Ptolemy ruler in the South, aroused by the prospects of an invasion of Egypt by Antiochus III Magnus (Antiochus III the Great) went forth to fight with him. Antiochus III (the king of the North) had come with a very large army, which Ptolemy IV defeated, casting down ten thousand soldiers. Yet nothing was gained by the battle, Ptolemy IV Epiphanes did not pursue the defeated King of the North. Ptolemy Epiphanes entered Jerusalem, and attempted to force the Jews to allow him to offer sacrifices in their temple. The restraint offered by the priests so angered him that when he returned to Egypt he killed several thousand Jews who then lived in Egypt.

11.13
For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.

Ptolemy IV Epiphanes died and a young king sat on the throne in the Southern kingdom. Antiochus III (from the north) decided this was a good time to take his revenge.

He made extensive preparations to invade Egypt with the design of taking over the Ptolemy kingdom. He made an alliance with Philip of Macedon, a successor to Cassander in the west, to make a joint attack on Egypt, whose possessions they would then divide.

He was quite successful at first. Then Scobas, a Greek general in the Southern kingdom pushed him back. The war did end up with the king of the north (Antiochus the Great) having taken control of Palestine and some other Ptolemy holdings.

The Jews themselves were in a "civil war" of sorts, as some wanted the Seluicids to win, and others the Ptolemies. In the end they "opened the door" to the Seluicids.

However, as successful as Antiochus the Great was, there was another power GROWING! Antiochus' conquests were getting him in trouble with this growing power, ROME.

As Antiochus in 197, began conquering Greek cities in Asia Minor and then in 196 B.C. he crossed the Hellespont into Thrace, where he claimed sovereignty over territory the Romans began challenging Antiochus the Great. Battles were fought. The Romans chased Antiochus out of Europe, and then defeated him in the Battle of Magnesia. He was forced to renounce all claim to his conquests in Europe and in Asia Minor west of the Taurus. In fact the son of Antiochus the Great, Antiochus Epiphenese was taken hostage for a time to Rome. By the time Antiochus Epiphenese came to the throne the Seluicid kingdom was paying tribute to Rome.

In all these prophecies it is not the end of an empire that marks transition to the next power, that transition is marked by a desivive battle in which the reigning empire suffers considerable lose to the rising NEW power.

Thus the prophet Daniel has taken us from Persia, to Grecia, and shown us the turmoil between the two major Grecian kingdoms with Jerusalem in the middle. Next we will move on to Rome

Dedication · Senior Member

Daniel 11:14

Let's just focus on one phrase for a moment before continuing the sequential story line.

"The robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision."

Isaiah 42.24
Who gave Jacob for a spoil, and Israel to the robbers? did not the LORD, he against whom we have sinned? For they would not walk in his ways, neither were they obedient unto his law.

Literally, "robbers of thy people" reads " the breakers of thy people", the destroyers.

What vision will they establish?
Who arises after the four Greek kingdoms that breaks and destroys God's people?

It points to the Romans, who eventually (63 B.C.) robbed the Jews of their independence, and later (in 70 A.D. and 135 A.D.) destroyed the Temple, the city of Jerusalem, and killed vast numbers of Jews.

Also, it was in during the reign of Antiochus the Great that the Romans started making their strength felt.

Then during the reign of Antiochus the Great's son, Antiochus Epiphenaes, the transgressors filled their cup of iniquity. He and his army transgressed against the Jewish people, very nearly exterminated the religion and culture of the Jews as he stripped the sanctuary of all its treasures, plundered Jerusalem and outlawed their religion. Of course the Maccabees (a strong Jewish family) freed Jerusalem of Antiochus Epiphenes' control and re-established the temple services and established Isreal as an independent state.

However, the Maccabees made one VERY SERIOUS MISTAKE:

1 Maccabbees 8

17 So Judas Machabeus chose Eupolemus, the son of John, the son of Jacob, and Jason, the son of Eleazar, and he sent them to Rome to make a league of amity and confederacy with them: 18 And that they might take off from them the yoke of the Grecians, for they saw that they oppressed the kingdom of Israel with servitude. 19 And they went to Rome, a very long journey, and they entered into the senate house, and said: 20 Judas Machabeus, and his brethren, and the people of the Jews, have sent us to you to make alliance and peace with you, and that we may be registered your confederates and friends. 21 And the proposal was pleasing in their sight.

Oh -- Israel, how often have you sought the protection of your enemies instead of depending upon God.

Now let's get back to the sequence as outlined in Daniel 11

Going back to verse 13 we'll follow Antiochus the Great and the involvement of the Romans.

11.13
For the king of the north shall return, and shall set forth a multitude greater than the former, and shall certainly come after certain years with a great army and with much riches.

Antiochus the Great, seeing his rival in the south had died and a young king sat on the throne, decided this was a good time to take his revenge. He made extensive preparations to invade Egypt with the design of taking over the Ptolemy kingdom. He made an alliance with Philip of Macedonia, a successor to Cassander in the west, to make a joint attack on Egypt, whose possessions they would then divide.

He was quite successful at first. Then Scobas, a Greek general in the Southern kingdom pushed him back. The war did end up with the king of the north (Antiochus the Great) having taken control of Palestine and some other Ptolemy holdings.

11.14
And in those times there shall many stand up against the king of the south: also the robbers of thy people shall exalt themselves to establish the vision; but they shall fall.

We've addressed the "robbers of thy people" already. (The emerging new power)

But what is happening to the king of the south?
Although the Ptolemies were officially recognized as pharaohs and they supported most of the Egyptian culture and religion, they remained fundamentally a foreign dynasty (A grecian dynasty). Around 200 BC Egyptian men, who claimed royal blood, started a revolt against the Ptolemy government, claiming that they were the rightful Pharaohs. The young Ptolemy king was fighting for his throne locally.

Then, Antiochus the Great, (king of the North) with Philip of Macedonia was forming quite a confederation to attack the southern kingdom.

Here's a bit of a date line to see how things happened:

202, Outbreak of the Fifth Syrian War; the North renewed attempt to conquer southern Syria
200: Battle of Paneion: South Ptolemy V loses his Asian territories;
Rome declares war against Macedonia (Macedonia ceases the war against the Ptolemy in Egypt) Rome orders Antiochus to withdraw from his quest to conquer Egypt.
199-197: Antiochus obeys the Roman's command and cancels his invasion of Egypt, and instead attacks Ptolemaic possessions in Cilicia
The king of the south was being attacked internally and externally, Rome comes to the aid of the king of the south, not with an army but with power in their commands.
Probably because of Rome's victory against the Grecian armies in the west, it made Antiochus tremble and obey when ordered by Rome to stop the invasion of Egypt.
11.15
So the king of the north shall come, and cast up a mount, and take the most fenced cities: and the arms of the south shall not withstand, neither his chosen people, neither shall there be any strength to withstand.
Antiochus the Great was ambitious!
Antiochus attacked the Ptolemaic province of Koile Syria and Phoenicia, and by 199 BC he seems to have had possession of it before the Aetolian, Scopas, recovered it for Ptolemy. But that recovery was short lived for in 198 BC Antiochus defeated Scopas at the Battle of Panium, near the sources of the Jordan, a battle which marks the end of Ptolemaic rule in Judea.
In this battle Scopas, the Egyptian general, fled to Sidon, a strongly "fenced city," where he was forced to surrender. Sidon was known as "a city of fortifications." The city was taken by literally building siege mounds {ramps made out of built-up dirt that enable attacking forces climb over enemy walls or fortifications), as predicted.
11.16
But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land, which by his hand shall be consumed.
Had there been no Rome, Antiochus the Great may well have taken over the whole of the Grecian kingdoms.
But he (Rome) that comes against him, messes up Antiochius' ambitions.
In 192 Antiochus invaded Greece with a 10,000 men army. In 191, however, the Romans coming to the aid of Greek states defeated him at Thermopylae and he had to withdraw to Asia. The Romans followed up their success by attacking Antiochus in Anatolia, winning a decisive victory in (190 BC).
(188 BC) a treaty was signed, the Seleucid king abandoned all of it's territory north of the Taurus to Rome. As a consequence of this blow to the Seleucid power, the outlying provinces of the empire, recovered by Antiochus, reasserted their independence.
This new "king of the North" would do according to his own will, and none shall stand before him.
Rome begins it's rise to an empire, and it was only a matter of a few more years when in 67 B.C. the Roman assembly elected Pompey as commander in the Mediterranean area. In the following year Pompey set out to conquer the eastern front. He then moved on and crushed the remnant of the kingdom of the Seleucids and entered Jerusalem and brought the land of Israel under Roman control.
Rome was now standing (in control of) "the glorious land", the land that had been promised to Israel. From this time on Rome controlled the Jewish lands, in 70 A.D. they would "consume" Jerusalem and then utterly consume their homeland by 134 A.D.
But verse 16 is only giving a quick summary as it tells us a new power arises and none will be able to stand against it -- not the king of the north, not the king of the south, nor the people in the "glorious land" which should have been able to stand had they maintained their covenant with God.

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Now some may point to Antiochus the Great's son Antiochus Epiphenes, not Rome as this great new power, but Epiphenes was already a vassel of Rome when he became the Seluecid king. He did wage some wars, but though he won some he lost a great deal as well. Though he caused Israel much distress, he did NOT consume the temple or the city. He actually lost control of Israel. Israel WAS able to stand against him and cast him out.
The story of Daniel 11 doesn't go into the Seleucid kings after Antiochus the Great, for another power was now in the spotlight and controlled even the Seleucid kings.

Dedication · Senior Member

11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his
whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

We are coming near to the end of the 70 week prophecy given in Daniel nine. The 490 years given to the Jewish nation to prepare for the coming of the Messiah are nearing their end. The king of the north has changed from the Seleucids to the Romans.

You will recall that the Jewish Maccabean leaders (Judas Maccabea) had entered into a league with Rome "that they might take off from them the yoke of the Grecians".
The bible has always considered such alliances as national "adultery" when His people call upon powerful nations for aid against their enemies instead of depending upon God.

But first we need to identify some symbols.

"daughter of women"

Notice -- unlike verse 6 this is not "the kings daughter of the south" or some other more direct statement. "daughter of women" has
a symbolic ring to it.

Maybe we should look in scripture for clues as to what it stands for.

Jer. 6:2 I have likened the daughter of Zion to a comely and delicate woman.
Isaiah 22:4 Therefore said I, Look away from me: I will weep bitterly, labour not to comfort me, because of the spoiling of the
daughter of my people.
Jeremiah 6:14 They have healed also the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when [there is] no peace.
Jeremiah 6:26 O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most
bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us.
Jeremiah 8:19 Behold the voice of the cry of the daughter of my people because of them that dwell in a far country: Is not the LORD
in Zion? is not her king in him? Why have they provoked me to anger with their graven images, [and] with strange vanities?
8:21 For the hurt of the daughter of my people am I hurt; I am black; astonishment hath taken hold on me.
8:22 [Is there] no balm in Gilead; [is there] no physician there? why then is not the health of the daughter of my people recovered?
9:1 Oh that my head were waters, and mine eyes a fountain of tears, that I might weep day and night for the slain of the daughter of my
people!

The daughter of women = the people known as God's people.

The principle "he" is the one that stands in the glorious land --Pompey, -- who is given "the daughter of women" into his hand.
Indeed he corrupts "her" forcing his way into the temple, clear into the most Holy Place, only to find it empty.

And indeed "Judea" was "given" him.

Notice earlier in Daniel, speaking of a different event, Daniel writes"

Dan. 1:2 And the Lord gave Jehoiakim king of Judah into his [Nebuchadnezzer] hand,

Now, in 63 BC the Lord gave Judah into Pompey's (actually Rome's) hand.

But the Jews were not for Rome;
even though one faction of the Jews had sided with Pompey and helpedhim gain control of their nation!

When Pompey arrived in Palestine the Jews were in the middle of
civil dispute. Hyrcanus II, was the official high priest in
Jerusalem, but he was being opposed by his brother Aristopulus for
this influential position as national leader of the Jews. The
Pharisees sided with Hyrcanus, the Sadducees with Aristobulus. The
Jews had their own civil battle in which Aristopulus won the position
as high priest.

When Pompey arrived in 63 BC, both brothers sent their delegates to
Pompey, appealing to him for his help! Pompey favoured Hyrcanus
over Aristobulos. And fought against Aristobulos and his
followers. Hyrcanus was given back his position as high Priest, BUT
Judea was no longer free -- they were now subject to Rome. Thus
we have Pompey conquering Palestine with the help of Jews siding
with Hyrcanus.

Dedication · Senior Member

11:16 But he that cometh against him shall do according to his own will,

(Rome in the broad sense, beginning about 191 BC, when a Roman army led by consul Manius Acilius Glabrio defeated Antiochus III as the latter was trying to conquer territory in Greece. Antiochus III had to give up considerable territory to Rome and was made a tributary to Rome. The "kingdom of the north" was now under Roman control.
However it was Pompey who conquered the east and made a final end of the Seleucid kingdom in 64 BC.)

and none shall stand before him: and he shall stand in the glorious land,
Egypt could not stand: It was the Roman Pompey who was the "guardian" of the king of Egypt. Ptolemy XI (Ptolemy Auletes) was deposed by his subjects and appealed to Rome for help. Pompey sends Gabinius to restore Ptolemy XI back to his throne. Ptolemy XI made the Roman senate executor of his will and Pompey the guardian of his children (one of whom was Cleopatra). Also after Pompey's death Julius Caesar fought a battle, putting Cleopatra back on the throne after she had been deposed by her brother, then a few years after Julius Caeser, Octavious conquered Egypt.

The Seluecids could not stand:
Pompey made a final end of the Seleucid kingdom in 64 BC

Judea could not stand: Rome would stand as the Conqueror

which by his hand shall be consumed.
(Again we see that this verse, though speaking of Pompey, is also speaking of Rome in the broad sense. It is Rome that is taking over and it is Rome which would eventually consume the "glorious land" in 70 A.D.)

11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him;

In 66 BC., Pompey was hailed as the first man in Rome, "Primus inter pares" the first among equals.

thus shall
he do: and
he shall give
him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side,
neither be for him.

The first "he" would refer to Pompey since he was the one to stand in the "glorious land".

Also the lead in verse 16 suggests the next sentence would give us some details pretaining to this decisive moment when Rome takes control of God's chosen nation.

Who are the "upright ones"?
Some translations say he brings "with him equitable conditions;" ASV or "terms of peace". RSV
The word means "upright" "that which is pleasing" "that which is right" it can also mean "on the same level" or as some of our pioneers used it -- "men of equal conditions".

Who gives who the "daughter of women"?
....."he" gives "him".....

Interestingly, not only does the Bible repeatedly call God's people "daughter", but the same word which is most often translated as "daughter" is also translated as "town" 32 times in scripture, and "village" 12 times in scripture.

11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

So let's define the pronouns:

1:17 He(Pompey)
shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom,
( In 66 BC., Pompey was hailed as the first man in Rome,)
and
upright ones with him;

The "upright ones" may refer to Hyrcanus II, high priest in Jerusalem who was being opposed by his brother Aristopulus, who took by force this influential position as national leader of the Jews, from Hyrcanus. The Phariseessided with Hyrcanus, while the Sadducees sided with Aristobulus.
When the Roman General Pompey arrived, he sided with Hyrcanus who then helped Pompey take Jerusalem in 63 AD, in return Hyrcanus received back his position as high Priest.

thus shall
he(Hyrcanus) do: and
he (Hyrcanus)shall give
him(Pompey/Rome) the daughter of women, (The city of God's chosen people with its temple built to honor God) Jeremiah 6:26 O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us.

corrupting her:

Aristopulus and his followers used the temple as their fortress, since Hyrcanus had let Pompey into the city. For three months Pompey, Hyrcanus II, and their joint army of Romans and Jews besieged the defenders. Finally they won. Pompey entered the temple going into the holy and most holy rooms. Thus "defiling" the temple. But of course Rome "corrupted" Jerusalem in more ways than one.

but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

We know the Jews hated the Romans – even the Pharisees who first assisted Pompey.

11:18 After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause [it] to turn upon him.

11:18 After this shall he (Pompey)

(Pompey had won the east for Rome, upon returning to Rome the senate wasn't treating him as he wished, thus he joined up with two other top notch generals in what is called the "first triumvirate" -- Crassus, Julius Caesar, and Pompey, by which they had the power. However, Crassus soon died in battle. Julius had been busy conquering the west, including much of Europe. Pompey was in Rome with considerable influence when Julius Caesar returned with his seasoned army. Caesar's popularity with the people high, presenting a threat to the power of the Senate and to Pompey, who held power in Rome. Accordingly, the Senate called upon Caesar to disband his army or risk being declared an "Enemy of the State". Pompey was entrusted with enforcing this edict - the foundation for civil war was laid. In defiance to the order, Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon River with his army. Crossing this river with an army into Italy proper was considered treason.

In Rome, Pompey didn't have a large army, so he, with many of the senate, decided to leave Rome. Caesar chased him down to southern Italy, where Pompey and his men boarded ships. Pompey was master of the sea, Julius Caesar had no ships.

He shall turn his face unto the isles,

Pompey and his men (he had about five legions) head for the Grecian Isles. Where he is left in peace (for a while) from Julius Caesar's pursuit.

and shall take many:

Pompey was able to compell the Parthians to be "friendly".

Pompey's aim now was to build up a strong army. From the peoples of the east he collected horses and a fleet, and built up his army.

but a prince (Julius Caesar) for his own behalf (to elevate himself) shall cause the reproach offered by him (Pompey, with the senate who had laballed Caesar as dangerous and a "traitor" for bringing his army across the Rubicon River) to cease;

Caesar was establishing himself in Rome, and working to destroy Pompey's support. He elected a new senate. Went and fought against some of Pompey's armies that had been stationed in Spain. And generally worked to undo the rumours and reports (reproach) that he was revolutionary, dangerous rebel against the state.

without his (Julius Caesar's) own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him (Pompey).

Pompey and the senate had ordered Julius Caesar to disband his army before coming into Rome. They had counted on the Italian people to rally behind them in defending the country and their freedom from this power hungry rebellious warrior, if he crossed the Rubicon with his army. But the people didn't really trust the senate either and many thought of Caesar as a hero! The reproach thrown at Julius Caesar was now turned upon Pompey. Caesar soon followed Pompey and in the battle of Pharsalia defeated Pompey's army. Pompey, himself fled to Egypt where he was murdered by command of the young king Ptolomy (Cleopatra's brother) who seemed to have forgotten that his father had held the throne only thanks to Pompey.

Julius Caesar followed Pompey to Egypt, finding Pompey dead, he fought against Ptolemy, defeating him, and placed Cleopatra back on the Eygptian throne (she had been deposed by her brother and his supporters).

11:19 Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.

Then Julius Caesar went back to Rome, where he was the reigning power. In February of 44 BC, Caesar assumed a new term of dictatorship of perpetual duration. He was assassinated by people wishing for a return to a republic, many of them former officers of Caesar.

Dedication · Senior Member

Julius Ceaser died in 44 BC.

And so we come to the last few years allotted to the children of Israel.
Daniel 9 says 70 X 7 weeks (490 years were allotted to Israel) During the last seven years of
which the Messiah would come to them.
For 400 years they have lived at an important crossroads of western civilization. They were placed there to be a light of truth to surrounding nations.
What happened?

The early years, under Persian rule saw the rebuilding of their cities and country. Other than the opposition from the Samaritan neighbors,
these were relative peaceful years.

During the Greek empire (especially in the later years) there was considerable pressure to adopt Hellinistic culture.
This split the Jewish nation as some were eager to adopt the Greek culture, while others compromised trying to keep a "middle of the road"
approach to Hellenism and Judiasm, while a third group was strongly against the Greek culture and very strict about Judiasm.

A lot of "strange" literature began to circulate. There was a large mixing of truth with Greek philosophies.

"The enemy was at work upon human minds to keep light from the people of
God. As Israel separated more and more from God, they failed to have a
correct estimate of truth, and supplied its place with fanciful ideas
and the imaginations of men....The power of the destroyer had led Israel
far astray. When they should have magnified God and talked of His
goodness and power, they were found disbelieving and complaining. Every
means which the deceiver could invent, he used to sow in their hearts
seeds of envy, discord, and of hatred against God. Thus when Christ came
to the earth, Satan had brought in a religion for the Jews which pleased
himself. The nation had departed from God, and another leader was
guiding them. {BEcho, February 20, 1899 par. 5}

It was Satan's studied purpose to bring the Jewish nation into such a state of darkness that they would not know Jesus when he came. Had they
walked in the light, they would not have been thus deceived.

Now, (at this point in Daniel's history vision) the Jewish nation is under the yoke of Rome. Their whole hope in a Messiah centered on a
great warrior arising who would deliver them from the Roman yoke and elevate the nation to supremacy over all nations.

When the Messiah came most did not recognize Him, He was dispised and rejected and finally crucified by His people who should have welcomed
Him.

There are many lessons to learn from israel's experience as we near the second coming of Christ.

The commotion in the world distracting us, causing us to look to human solutions instead of God's solutions.
The culture and philosophies in the many books polluting our the truth in our minds,
A desire for liberation from worldly suppression instead of the longing to be delivered from sins power.
A spirit of grumbling and complaining, instead of confidently trusting in the Lord.
Elevating religious forms and ceremonies over having a life changing relationship with God.

When Jesus comes again, will we be singing with the angels praising our
Redeemer and Savior?

Dedication · Senior Member

11.20
Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.

In the previous verses we saw Julius Ceasar attempting to replace the Roman Republic with a personal dictatorship. Having vanquished his rival Pompey, he returns to Rome to establish himself, but is assinated.
After Julius Caesar's death, Rome was once again plagued with political rivalry, from which Octavian emerged the winner. Anthony and Cleopatra were defeated. Egypt became Roman territory. At last the unity of the Roman Empire was under the power of a single ruler. (30 B.C.) Rome was now at the pinnicle of greatness. Never before or after would there be the peace, justice, discipline and learning within the empire.

Octavian was named Augustus Caesar and ruled for 45 years. Augustus means "divine". Octavius was a raiser of taxes. He is noted for his census taking and these census rolls served as a tax base.
It was during his reign that we read in Luke 2:1
… there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

The text points us Bethlehem. This is the time that the glory of God's kingdom is to be introduced to the world. Christ, the King of kings and Lord of Lord's is about to be born a Savior of mankind. The Prince of the whole universe would come into the world a helpless baby.

The account of Jesus birth in Luke 2 gives the correct timing and place for the fulfilment of Daniel 11:20

The tax laws brought the parents of Christ to Bethlehem. Caesar Augustus is made the agent for the fulfillment of God's purposes. All the Bible tells us of this man who brought the Roman Empire to the pinnacle of its power, is that he was a raiser of taxes when the kingdom was at the height of its glory, and that after a reign of a few days, or years, he should end his career in peace.

Eighteen years (A.D.14) after the taxation Augustus Ceasar died (not in anger or in battle) but naturally in his bed.

Dedication · Senior Member

11.21
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.

Christ's ministry was during the reign of Tiberius, and while that "vile person" worked, planned, mistrusted and murdered the opposition, the HOLY ONE of Israel, Immanuel, God with us, walked among men, healing, teaching and revealing the love of God for mankind.

Tiberius was not the natural son of Octavious, and Casaer Augustus was not keen on granting Tiberious the empire, but having no other successor he finally agreed. Thus with the help of his coniviving mother, Livia, Tiberious received the kingdom peacefully, without the usual fighting for the throne.

Tiberious does not rate high in Roman history or in Biblcial history.
Tiberius, among other things, was ruthless in putting down any rebellion.
Most of Jesus life was spent under the reign of Tiberious. It was a time of servere oppression for the Jewish people. The governors of Judah reflected the character of the general government and many incidents of severe punishment occured at any defiance of Roman authority.

All the hopes of Judah were placed in a soon to come Messiah who would drive out the hated Romans and exalt them into the supreme nation.

11.22
And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the Prince of the covenant.

What is emerging from the previous verses is NOT just another historical account of battles --
which showed the emergence of Rome! Pagan Rome from which PAPAL will be seen to arise-- that is the earthly power upon which the focus of all the visions center!

The MAIN FOCUS OF COURSE is CHRIST--He is here seen in the MIDDLE of the vision.

The earthly power opposing HIM which the visions of Daniel and Revelation show is ROME (pagan/papal)

The next verses parallel with Daniel 9.

Daniel 11
11.21
And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.
11.22
And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Daniel 9

9:25
...from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks and threescore and two weeks...(69 weeks, or 483 day/years)
9.26
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
9.27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Christ came to this earth to establish the covenant of salvation.
This verse is in the center of the prophecy -- the cross of Christ, His saving sacrifice is the center of hope for salvation.

Christ is the PRINCE OF THE COVENANT--
Daniel 9 tells us HE confirmed the COVENANT--
We know HE CONFIRMED IT WITH HIS OWN BLOOD upon Calvary.

Matt. 26.28
For this is my blood of the new covenant,which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hebrews 9.14-15
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? And for this cause he is the mediator of the new covenant,that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first covenant, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

This corresponds to Daniel 9:24-27 where 70 weeks or 490 day/years were granted Israel following their restoration after the Babylonian captivity, to prepare themselves and the world for the coming Messiah.
Messiah the Prince shall come after 69 weeks. Messiah will be cut off, but not for Himself….
He shall confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and oblations….. Christ would die in the middle of the 70th week. He was the sacrifice to which all the former sacrifices pointed. The ceremonial sacrifices were now no longer needed, for the better blood had been shed.

Isaiah 53 tells us more:

The LORD laid on Him the iniquity of us all...He was led as a lamb to the slaughter….He was cut off from the land of the living for the transgression of My people He was stricken…He shall see the labor of His soul and be satisfied.

Yes, they nailed the Prince of Life (Acts 3:15) the Prince of the covenant (Dan. 11:22) to the cross. The Jews planned the event but the Romans passed the condemning sentence and carried out the deed. The Prince of the everlasting covenant was crushed by those who sought to confederate together to "have no king but Caesar". They chose the WRONG prince; they chose the prince of Rome.

John 19:12 "The Jews cried out, saying, If you let this man go, you are not Caesar's friend: whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar."
And he (Pilate) said unto the Jews, Behold your King!
John 19.15-16
But they cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him. Pilate said unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. Then delivered he him therefore unto them to be crucified.

Daniel 9 continues to tell us this prince which they chose would do:

he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 11:22 says with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him. The text presents a picture of an inferior force being overwhelmed and defeated by the superior forces. The flood is to be flooded and the arms are to be broken.

Vespasian, a very able commander in the East, was declared emperor in 69 A.D. Vespasian had been engaged in crushing a revolt of the Jews in Palestine, and the next year his son Titus captured and destroyed Jerusalem amid frightful massacres which exterminated large numbers of Jews in (A.D. 70) Daniel's prophecy in chapter 9 gives Israel 490 years--
Restored to their homeland after the Babylonian captivity they were given 490 years to prepare for the coming Messiah.

Jesus says-- forgive 7 X 70 times.
Israel had suffered 70 years of punishment for her sins when taken to Babylon--
She was forgiven 7 X 70=490 years. But Jerusalem refused her MESSIAH PRINCE.
In HIS place she chose the wrong prince of desolation -- ROME.

Thus-- as Christ said while weeping over Jerusalem-- "Your house is left unto you-- desolate."

BUT the overspreading of abominations continue much longer and involved much more. It did not end with the destruction of Jerusalem. ---"even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".

The destruction of Jerusalem corresponds with the "first trumpet" judgment-- the first judgment to fall upon the rejectors of Christ's covenant. The destruction of Jerusalem is one example of the endtime judgment of the whole world which will once again choose the ROMAN PRINCE who is against the covenant, over the TRUE PRINCE OF THE COVENANT.

Dedication · Senior Member

Daniel 11:23 And after the league made with him (Roman emperor) he
(an emerging new power, the bishop of Rome) shall work deceitfully: for he (the
Bishop of Rome) shall come up, and shall become strong with a small
people.

Before looking into the historical fulfilment it is important to consider the
concept of "the church". How people view "the church" helps us understand the
battle that takes place and the development of the beast.

There are two very different concepts of church.

The concept that prevailed prior to the cross saw church or religion as an
element that involved the whole of society; this necessitated that all within
the society embraced the same basic religious beliefs for the society to
function properly. Those who refused to accept and abide by these religious
practices were cast out – exiled or even killed.

This was a sacralist society where everyone in the whole region was to abide by the accepted religion.

With the New Testament Christ introduced a whole new concept of church. It is a
concept where church is composed of believers and believers only, who live in a society where most do not believe.

The Jews during Christ's time did not understand this new concept. They were a
sacralist society that could not understand how they could allow themselves to
be paying taxes etc to the pagan Romans without betraying loyalty to their national religion.

They even confronted Jesus with the problem in hopes of embarrassing him . But
Jesus used the situation to teach the new concept – "Render to Caesar the things
that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's". (Matt. 22:21)

A careful study of the New Testament brings this concept out again and again.
The Church is the body of Christ, the believers in Christ, who live as upright,
law abiding citizens in whatever country they are in. Influencing society by
being like "salt" within the society, but the society and government is NOT the
church. The state is a secular institution, that regulates society concerning secular needs and safety.
It is not to have authority to regulate faith.

Where ever the gospel was preached the human society became a composite society.
Some accepting Christianity, others following other beliefs and philosophies.

It was due to Rome's sacralist thought habits for Roman society that caused the
persecutions against the early Christians.

Christians obeyed the state when it did NOT conflict with God's law but they
could not give homage to an object or to a person -- an homage which belonged only to God.

They dwelt in the world without being of the world. (see John 17:15-16)

The church was to be a people who worshipped God in spirit and in truth, NOT
simply because it was the culture and societal practice.

That Christianity was an individual calling into the Body of Christ is even
more emphatic as Christ points out not even family ties were to stand in the
way. Jesus said, "I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and
the daughter against the mother " (Luke 12:53) He was setting forth the
concept that each person had to chose for himself or herself, not even the head
of the family was to stand in the way of a person accepting Christ.

BUT in Daniel 11:23 we see the rise of sacralism in Christianity.
Constantine's program was not simply to give Christians freedom to worship as
their conscience directed. No, he wanted to create a sacralist society by
which his subjects were bound together in loyality to one state religion.

It was NOT the plan set forth in the New Testament.

Oneness within the church of Christ, must be oneness IN Christ and in His truth,
not oneness in an emperor's or a pope's enforced designs and interpretations.

Thus the beginnings of a form of Christianity as an intolerant sacralist
society was born and fills prophecy concerning the Christian era and the final
great conflict between this sacral church idea, (which became, and becomes, a
powerful force) and the true believing church anchored in Christ and His truth.

Dedication · Senior Member

Daniel 11:23-25

11:23 And after the league [made] with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.

A.D. 313 Emperor Constantine issued the Edict of Milan granting freedom
to all Christians to worship, and commanding that the churches and
church property which had been confiscated by Diocletian should be
restored to the whole body of Christians.

No sooner had the Emperor offered them privileges, then the ecclesiastical Catholic leadership seized the opportunity to secure imperial recognition for the legal establishment of the Catholic Church.
They disputed the right of any other Christians, other than those in
agreement with the Roman Catholic Church to benefit from the edict. By disputing the right of certain Christian groups to claim the title of Christians the Catholic Church forced an imperial decision as to who were the "real" Christians.

Consequently Constantine changed his edict to read, "any of those
things belonging to the Catholic church of the Christians....thou shalt cause immediately to be restored to their churches." So within a month after the "league" was made, the imperial favors were restricted to the "Catholic Church , thus they received the confiscated churches and property and those rendered "heretics" did not.

The Roman Bishop was gaining "strength" rapidly.

However, the greatest issue was concerning the Donatist Christians who had many churches in Northern Africa. The first issue was over the choice of a new archbishop in Northern Africa, who was installed without the usual consultation of the African bishops. Not only that, but this Archbishop, Cecilianus, was in connection with people considered "traditors" who had handed over Christian books to be burned
during Diocletian's persecution, and he had interfered with those wanting
to bring food and other comforts to Christians in prison during the persecution.

Now this Cecilianus was receiving benefits from the imperial throne, but the Donatists were not. Thus a petition was sent to Constantine to have the decision reversed, but Constantine placed the matter in the hands of the Bishop of Rome and his counsellors, who were in communication with Cecilianus.

Thus taking the decision of the Roman Bishop, Constantine addresses a
letter to Cecilianus, bestowing more favor on what he now called
"the legitimate and most holy Catholic religion", and empowered
him to use the civil power to compel the opposing party – the Donatists—to submit.

Persecution was begun at once. Donatist bishops were driven out, and
their churches given to the Catholic party. This was not done peacefully, but resulted in massacre and license which devastated the African cities. This persecution lasted about five years.

Before his death Constantine relented his decision, and granted the
Donatists freedom. But his bad example of offering civil power against
the Pope's distracters would be followed by successive emperors.

11:24He shall enter peaceably even upon the fattest places of the province; and he shall do [that] which his fathers have not done, nor his fathers' fathers; he shall scatter among them the prey, and spoil, and riches: [yea], and he shall forecast his devices against the strong holds, even for a time.

Constantine died in 337 AD his son Constans became ruler over the western and north African territories.

In the year 340 Constans directed two commissioners, Ursacius and Leontius, to "scatter" money under the name of alms among them to win over the Donatist churches.

When this experiment with the royal bounty failed, Constans devices against them became forceful!
The Donatists were to be deprived of their churches.Armies attacked them while they were assembled in their churches for worship.By 347 A.D. it was outright war against the Donatists; called the "The Macarian war". According to the Optatus (who lived at the time) the bishops and their clergy tried to flee,many were killed, those who got away, were later captured and sent into exile.The aim was to drive the Donatists out of their churches and into the Catholic Church.It was a war for the Catholic union.

Then in 361 A.D. Julianus (often called the apostate) became emperor.The persecutions stopped.It is said he revolted from the intolerance of the established church, and hated its persecutions.The Donatists as well as many others rejoiced in his reign of religious freedom.
This freedom for the Donatists continued even after Julian's death, under the reigns of his successors until Theodosius began to reign (379-395) who set out to "cleanse" his empire of ALL conflicting religions.It was at the end of his reign and the years following, that Augustine started writing against the Donatists seeking to expose them to the penalties of the Theodosius code.Most of what people hear about the Donatists came from Augustine and so much of their history comes through the voice of one who was their enemy. All we know of the Donatist writings is what is quoted in Augustine's writings.Yet enough is quoted to exhibit the ability of this people to defend their cause and reveal their principles on church discipline, religious freedom and other standards and beliefs which they upheld.

A.D. 411. It was now about 100 years, since the Donatists operated separately from the Roman church.They were spread over all North Africa in spite of the persecutions.Their churches had often been taken from them by armed men, but now, under the keen mind of Augustine, with the full authority of Emperor Honorius behind him, a plan was laid to gain possession of all the Donatist Churches by a legal process.

Augustine calls the Donatist Bishops to a conference, threatening them with the confiscation of their churches if they refuse to come.The conference was set up in judicial style, a panel of Catholic debaters was chosen and a reluctant panel of Donatists.Records were kept.A large company of state officials was in attendance according to the edict of the emperor as coadjutors.The doors are closed so there are no outside witnesses.The conference continued for several days, the Donatists ably defended their position and history.Then one day the "judge", Marcellinus, had the meeting drag on into the night, when suddenly he stopped the discussion and without any review of the proceedings condemned the Donatists.He declared by "edict of the emperor" that the chief menof all the country were to prohibit Donatists frommeeting together, and the Donatists were to surrender without delay all their churches to the Catholics or they would perish in the snares of many imperial decrees.Or they could join the Catholic Union.

Augustine then writes a very slanted summery of the proceedings declaring the conference had been held; the Donatist's falsehoods had been proved false, and the people should join the true Catholic Union.
The Donatist were falsely accused of a confederacy with the Circumcellions (wandering "gangs" of young people given to much wine and violence).Augustine especially filled his writings in an effort to unite the Donatists with the worst of immoral and violent behavior.Yet, from Augustine's writings we can also see the Donatists firmly and consistently denied any connection whatsoever with Circumcellions.

Was this conference the end of the Donatists as some historians assert?

In 412 the Emperor Honorius issued a very severe decree against the Donatists, subjecting them to fines and exile if they refused to join the Catholic Church.However, there is no evidence it was carried out or that any Donatists joined the Catholic Church.Instead there are letters by Augustine to the Dontists as late as 420 still trying to persuade them to join the Catholic Church, and no mention to the exile punishment.

The situation for the Donatists changed May 429 as Northern Africa was invaded by another group of Christians who were at odds with the papal/imperial church. The Homoian Christian Vandals eventually gained control of all the northern coastline of Africa.The lands south of the Mediterranean were no longer part of Rome.

The image of the Vandals as a destructive and ultimately nihilistic force is not entirely correct -- yes, they were savage warriors and a fearsome foe of Rome, but once in control of the land their culture was not that much different from the Roman culture. They adhered to a statement of doctrine which had lost out in the doctrinal controversies of the fourth century concerning the trinity, and upheld their position as the "true" position in their territories. The Donatists, who had never called themselves by the label, now seem to have merged with the African Christian community. The predominant religion of the whole African coast was now at odds with Papal Christianity.
The Papal Catholic schema now placed their opponents whom they regarded as Arian, in the same position previously occupied by the Donatists. The conflict between the two over religious belief was often quite hostile..

11:25And he shall stir up his power and his courage against the king of the south with a great army; and the king of the south shall be stirred up to battle with a very great and mighty army; but he shall not stand: for they shall forecast devices against him.

Eastern emperor Leo decided something had to be done. He decided to join forces with the western empire against the Vandals, by nominating Anthemius as western emperor. He had collected a fleet of ships from the whole of the eastern Mediterranean. It was the greatest fleet ever sent against the Vandals enough to destroy the Vandal Kingdom and capture their king, Gaiseric. In AD 468, the fleet sailed from Constantinople into the Mediterranean Sea and was joined by the Italian fleet under Marcellinus. It was indeed a "great army". The Vandals also sent out a huge fleet. The Imperial army won several battles causing considerable looses for the Vandals. It seemed the Imperial army would surely win. It is still a mystery today this fleet had not just sailed into the port of Carthage and taken it. Instead the commander delayed, giving Gaiseric time to mount a strong defense.
Too late an alarm sounded. Gaiseric had sent fire galleys to sail into the pack of imperial ships which were crowded in a harbor. The galleys of the roman fleet burned throughout the night, destroy over half of them. The surviving ships sailed for safer harbors, the campaign was abandoned.

.